Tune a Piano Yourself Blog
This piano tuning blog is a companion to our How to Tune a Piano Yourself tutorial. In this blog we expand on the tutorial with new information and perspectives on do-it-yourself piano tuning. If it is your first time here, visit the tutorial first.
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02/09/11
Comments
In a very quick read I did not see anything about which side of the pin you should pull.
Obviously if you were to position the tuning lever such that you had to effectively push in the direction of the centre of the string you will be creating Much more friction than if you position the lever 180 degrees to this position. I suggest you do the latter! This will tend to lift the pin out of its socket rather than make it even more difficult (and wearing for the wrest plank and pin), owing to subtracting from the torque arising from the the tension of the string rather than adding to it.
I could be wrong, I'm not a tuner, but I'd surprised (again) if I am.
By the way, this assumes that you are going to add tension to the string before subtracting it, if tuning down. Again, I could be wrong, but it seems logical to relax the pin in its anchor if possible before attempting to turn it, either way.
I think you should issue a warning that inexperienced turning of the pins could shorten the life of the wrest plank and pins, and therefore of the piano. Unless an experienced piano technician is going to stand up and say otherwise.
Actually I think you should take your site down. My gut feel is that you are going to cause a lot of damage to otherwise OK pianos by encouraging some gung ho DIYers to have a go without any sound advice and warning.
What next - Brain surgery?
Scott replies: Thanks for taking time to comment. If you read the tutorial carefully, you'll see I address many of your concerns regarding turning the pins properly vis a vis string tension and pin health. As for taking my site down, I respectfully disagree. The tutorial has many cautions and disclaimers, with recommended reliable sources for further research. I allow my readers to make their own assessment. As for brain surgery, I have a site in development, stay tuned. ;)
I was recently given an Allison piano made in 1928. It sounded fine except for two notes next door to one-another. The piano tuner told me they could not be tuned and that the pin board was probably cracked and that the piano was scrap. I was horribly disappointed. After a few days I broke all your rules (I hadn't found your lovely website at that point) and tightened the pins with an adjustable spanner. The notes stayed in tune for about a month but then went out of tune. I bought a tuning kit (I'd read your site by then) and had another go. So far the notes are in tune. But if those pegs won't stay tight, and the notes go flat again, please tell me what to do. I seriously don't have the money to pay for a professional repair.
Many thanks
Scott replies:The first explanation to consider for slipping pins is always lever technique. Setting the pin so that the tuning holds is one of the essential skills that a tuner needs to develop. Keep practicing, and perhaps the hold will improve on its own. If the pins are truly slipping regardless of technique, then they may be loose. One solution for loose pins is to use Cyanoacrylate ("CA" or "Super Glue"). Applied around the pin where it enters the wood, the glue wicks in to add holding power. The next level would be to repin, using pins of a slightly larger diameter designed for replacement. However, if the pin block is indeed cracked or otherwise damaged, neither solution may be effective. The fact that your piano holds at may be a good sign that you can work with the loose pins.
I've been a machineshop engineer all my life, my forte was always being able to judge the amount of energy required to tap a tool .001", .002", etc whenever needed for machine seting up. This has stood me in good stead over the years for all sorts of engineering requirements. It has also helped me to understand the complexity of stresses on materials of various cross sections, and how they bend and distort under surprisingly small amounts of ambiguous tensions (i.e. clamping) As I have just purchased a cheap piano to play with, and with funds being a bit tight, I was extremely pleased to find this site. It has given me the kick start I needed to attempt a go myself, I have a good ear, and have tuned guitars for years, which helps one to understand the need to repetetively and periodically re-tune. I have heeded all your advice and ordered the tuning tool, just need to get a good quality square wrench. Thanks again for your efforts.
Thanks for the site info. I am based in the UK, and thought I would have a go at tuning my piano so purchased a hammer with a #2 tip (not interchangable). It's too big for the pegs, so I guess I have a piano with a #1 style peg which leads me to believe my piano is a pre 1900 European piano. It's a KURZON piano which I can't find any info about on the internet!
Anyway, I can't seem to find a UK supplier of a #1 tip with a hammer!!! Any pointers? Is it possible to buy tips which are compatible with standard socket sets (square hole). Thanks
Scott replies: I see that a #1 tip is available from International Tuning Supply, http://www.pianotuningtools.net/. They are based in the USA, but offer international shipping. You might contact them first, to see if they think their tips would address your particular piano.
I am soon giving the lodges old upright a new home. I haven't even lifted the key border cover or struck a note but, I am giving it a go. I play both electronic bass & guitar as well as acoustic , harmonica and the bassoon when ever I can access an instrument. My granddaughter is following in her older brothers foot steps and is taking piano lessons. As you can imagine I am stoked at the opportunity of getting this instrument. I found your site to be easy to understand and a fantastic source of info to help me make a final decision to accept the instrument or decline. I just happen to own a couple of Korge timers that along with your tutorial will definatly aid in my final decision. I have been wanting to learn to gain some comand over the 88ts and thanks to your site I may (or may not) soon be banging away on a vintage stand up. Thank-you very much for such a straight forward and insightful web site. If I go to buy some tools, books or accessories I will definatly click through your site.
Thanks a lot for this website. I live in a remote corner of Africa, but have always hesitated to buy a piano, even though I am keen pianist, because of the problem of tuning, as the nearest professional tuner is hundreds of miles away. I will now proceed to get both a piano and the tools to do my own tuning.
Scott replies: Glad you found this site encouraging. Your situation is a great example of why I like providing this information.
Great site! Thank you very much for your enlightening teachings on piano tuning.
I tune my own and friends' pianos using Tunelab Pro, but am a little suspicious of the custom tuning curves based on inharmonicity of a few sampled notes. I personally can't track beats at all (or rather don't trust my ears), and would like to tune using software that hears beats. That way, we could bypass any need for a custom tuning curve based on inharmonicity of sampled notes. We would just have make sure we tune each interval to the appropriate beat rate and a proper tuning would work out automatically. Again, I can't be sure of how many beats per second I'm hearing, but I think a computer program or special tuning device might be able to track the beat rate. Do you have any suggestions for how I could measure the beat rate using technology?
Thank you very much,
Steven
Scott replies: I don't know of any reason not to trust TuneLab. Many professionals use it successfully. I am not aware of software that can count beats, but I have not looked for it, either. I was going to suggest you ask this question at the PianoWorld forums, but I see you already have. I'll be watching the replies with you.
After reading your site, I was convinced I could improve the sound of my 1921 Story and Clark even if I couldn't make it perfect. I must say, once I started with the octaves I really got the hang of it. I'd say it sounds pretty awesome. I replaced a pin on the middle C shaft that had been loose (missing) for a long time. Thanks for your excellent instruction and advice. I've started working on my mom's 1950's Gordon Laughead Pianoforte. It's a real mess. Most of the keys were well over a half note flat. I'm letting it rest after the first tuning. It's going to take another two or three hour session, at least. I have a sore back, but my ears are happy.
Thanks!
I read your guide a few months ago and have now successfully tuned several old upright pianos, including my own.
I use a Korg chromatic tuner for the temperament, and
I have a very good ear so its not hard to set the unisons and the octaves.
This is the one and only tutorial to Piano Tuning!
Thank you so much, I never would have thought it be this easy!
Scott replies: Congratulations and thanks for the feedback!
Thanks for sharing your method. I now tune my 1904 Knabe with no fear! It's quite simple actually. You just need it to be quiet around, and follow the tips. I personally use a downloaded tuner (AP tuner 3.06) on my portable pc, and tune the whole range of notes with it (not just the center octave), using equal temperament and a concert grand stretching. Works great, love to hear those beatings coming to an end. You pianists out there, save a couple of bucks and try it out! I do use a lot my ear when moving up or down the keyboard, not just the tuner.
Scott replies: Stretch tuning software is certainly a suitable alternative to tuning by octaves. I would be interested to learn how much the final string frequencies differ between your software's stretch tuning and tuning octaves by ear as in my method on your actual real-life piano.
I checked my square grand and the pins are oblong - as you suspected. Can I get a tool that will fit them?
Scott replies: Yes, you can get the right tool. No levers currently for sale include oblong tips as standard. You will need to buy a lever handle that can accept interchangeable tips and purchase the tip separately. Here is one source.
I have a square grand. Do I need a different tool to tune it?
Scott replies: Thanks for stopping by. Square grands are difficult to tune. They were not well-made originally. They were last made a century ago, so you have a hundred years of age and likely neglect to overcome. Furthermore, their design is not tuner-friendly; you must lean over it, stressing your back, and a string that breaks can hurt you. Many tuners refuse to work on them. They do make beautiful furniture!
To answer your question, it depends. Many of these were originally made with "oblong" tuning pins, rather than the tapered square of modern pianos. If so, you will need a special oblong socket tip for your lever. In some cases, the old pins were replaced with modern square-tapered, which would take a standard socket size #2. (A third possibility is the "perfect square" pin, square with no taper. Untapered squares were not commonly used, but with a 100-plus year-old piano, who knows.) However, regardless you will probably need a longer tip for the tool than what may come standard. Get a 4" tip, the kind designed to clear the cabinetry of today's grand pianos. Since you do have some uncertainty here, get a tuning lever with replaceable heads or tips, not a fixed head as found on cheap tools.
I have some experience tuning piano's and I have to say this is a really comprehensive guide. There is something that I would like to bring to your attention that will make your tuning efforts even easier!
I've been developing piano tuning software that is free and open source.
It's currently already better and more accurate than real chromatic tuners. When it's finished it will be as good as very expensive packages like Veritune and TuneLab. Find it at sourceforge.net. Good luck with it!
Scott replies: Thanks, I'll have a look.
P. S. I have several strings to replace, but the piano supply site gives 9 different sizes. How do I know which to buy? (These are all low strings: in octave 2 (double strings).
Scott replies: Strings are sold by gauge. You need to measure it with a micrometer. Bass strings are effectively custom wound. You can replace them with "universal" bass strings, but the timbre will likely not match the other older strings. This is usually sufficient for non-performance pianos. If matching sound is essential, then you will need to find a technician who can custom wind something closer to the original, and it will be expensive! If the break is between the bridge and the pin and not in the "speaking" section, it is better to splice it.
Forgive my nit-picking... I found a couple of typo's [...]
I do REALLY appreciate the information you've provided. I'll let you know how I... and my piano... succeed!
Scott replies: Thanks for pointing out the errors. I have fixed them. I appreciate when a reader takes the time to tell me when something is amiss.
Having not played for ten years..... I picked up an old iron frame. Determined not to have to spend much more, I investigated your site and then approached my local music store about getting the tools to tune my piano. I got laughed at, and told 'good luck with that!' very sarcastically. I did not order my tools from them. I found a supplier in my country, Aussie, and they were delivered today.
Thus far, I have had time only to practice on my very old damaged piano, but I believe that - thanks to you - I will have great success on the one I recently got. If in doubt, I have a great pro to call on who services the whole city, and is happy to share his knowledge with an amateur should I call. SO exciting!!! Thankyou Scott!!!!!
I have looked through your web site with great interest and must compliment you on most of what I have seen. One problem that I have is that there seems to be little said about the angle of the hammer needing to be as close to verticle as possible. It is important that the movement of the tuning pin is not achieved from an angle which is too horizontal as this will not allow the final test of the pin setting without the weight of the lever coming into the equation.
Scott replies: Thank you for taking the time to read the full tutorial and provide your input. I assume you are referring to uprights. Actually, the technique you recommend was recently mentioned in our blog post, Eleven Tips from Owen Jorgensen for Piano Tuning Stability. To this point, we have not gone to that level of detail in the main tutorial (it's quite long already), but you remind us that we should at least link to the Jorgensen post from that part of the tutorial.
I'm a professional piano tuner with 30 years experience, and I would say you did a excellent job explaining the rigors of piano tuning. That said, I tune my ear, but, I would highly encourage anyone with the desire to tune a piano to purchase and ETD to get started, could be the beginning of a lucrative business.
Scott replies: Thanks for taking the time to add your comments. It's always good to hear feedback from a professional.
thank u so much!
gonna find myself an old crappy piano now and tune away
I am a long time tuner (and musician) and did quality control at a major US manufacturer for quite a few years. Kudos on your great website - I have found that most musicians can learn to touch up those occasional flat notes or unisons with just a little practice.
I know, it IS very intimidating to take something called a hammer to your beloved instrument for the first time but a well tuned piano with NO "clunkers" is a joy that will seem to pull the music right out of your fingers.
You have covered things very nicely so I will only add a couple thoughts.
1.) See if your favorite music store (or your old Aunt Mabel) will allow you to do some hammer practice on that big, heavy worthless old piano they intend to throw away. Then tune it up, tune it down, bust a couple treble strings, have fun - who cares. Ooh, yeah - don't let Aunt Mabel go on thinking otherwise as no one buys those old, beat up pianos. As a matter of fact most times people have to PAY to have grandpas old piano hauled away!
2.) As you have stated, trust your ear when tuning octaves. If it sounds right, go with it.
3.) Get the unisons perfect and the piano will sound so much better even if the temperment is less than perfect. Now suppose you get the perfect sounding temperment on that middle octave? It will still sound horribel if you do not get the unison perfect. But don't fret, ANYONE can tune a PERFECT unison, it's as easy as...
4.) Tuning perfect unisons - At the risk of being obvious, the three treble strings are tuned perfectly in unison when they sound like only ONE string. e.g. Tune 1st string and note how pure it sounds. Next, unmute 2nd unison and play the note. You will likely "hear" something less than pleasing and it won't sound so pure as a single string. Now, tune the second string to match the first string until you only seem to hear ONE string again. Tuners would say that those two string are tuned to an identical frequency and are vibrating perfectly in phase - hence you seem to only hear ONE string. Now, do the third unison string (if applicable).
5.) Break a string - no big deal - the piano will still play. A piano tuner can almost always fix a broken string on the spot when (s)he come to do the regular tuning. Any tuner worth his salt will haul a universal piano wire selection (and other common piano parts) with him to jobs.
Scott replies: Thanks for stopping by and contributing your perspective.
I came here because our piano, while beautifully in tune for the most part, has two notes that are severely out of tune. In both cases, they went out of tune after I played a song. Now admittedly I play pretty hard, but this is a very nice piano and doesn't seem like it should be behaving like this. After reading this site it seems clear that we need to hire a new tuner, but now I'm worried: is there a chance that our tuner actually loosened those pins? I could live with our tuner simply not being careful enough, but I would be upset if it turns out he's actually been causing harm. It's probably worth noting that this has happened before with one of the notes.
In any case, thank you for this very informative and helpful site!
Scott replies: Thanks for reading. The simplest explanation is that those particular pins simply did not "set;" it may not mean they are actually damaged or even that the tuner did a poor job. Setting pins is an art form, and pin response to setting can vary from piano to piano and within a piano unpredictably. If your tuner is otherwise satisfactory and recommended, you might give him the chance to make it right.
Hi, there. I was just cruising the web, doing research for a player piano I'm going to work on tomorrow and I found your site. I've been tuning and repairing pianos for over 20 years and I was impressed. What I liked best was the way you broke down a very complicated process into simple to understand language. One of my pet peeves when reading articles by experienced technicians is that they are usually full of details and discussions of the physics of sound that will make your head spin and your eyes roll back in your head! Thank you for breaking it down for the lay person. It would make me nervous if one of my clients was attempting to tune their piano by themselves, BUT if they are motivated and interested in learning, then more power to them. If they get into trouble, they'll give me a call. LOL
Sincerely,
Paula Aiton
California
Using the method described here, I successfully improved the intonation of a Yamaha grand in between professional tunings. The hardest part is getting that "well-tempered octave" in the middle, checking and re-checking 5ths and 4ths, etc. Moving out in octaves was more straightforward, trying to get the octaves as "beatless" as possible. Kept checking back and forth over multiple octaves as well as 5ths (I figured none should sound more "severe" than any other), just in case. Occasionally it was difficult to discern what was a beat from an out-of-tune very low string in combination with a higher octave - or rather just a "false" overtone from the single low string. But I can say that this method works, and I can see myself improving in the future, so that I don't have to put up with "that aquatic sound". Thanks, Scott!
Great site. You tend to be on the conservative side and that is good. I only tune specific strings that offensive. I would NEVER try to do the whole piano. Thanks for the great info.
Great work here. While we recommend more training than this to start your own piano tuning business, we think this information is great for the individual who wants to learn more about their instrument. If any of you fellow readers would like to learn how to tune professionally, The Institute of Instrument Technology (IIT) has the first and only completely online course certifying our students as CPTs (Certified Piano Technicians). More info here http://pianotuningschool.com/
Thanks for this great site. Keep on doing what you are doing and teaching about this beautiful instrument!
Thanks a million for taking the time to put together such a great website. It has been a desire of my heart to tune pianos for quite some time now. I stumbled across a tuning lever at my church, which wont be needed any longer because the decision was made to sell the baby grand, as its been replaced with the more modern and sleek keyboard. What a shame right. My wife and daughter play piano and we own a stand up which is a nice instrument although slightly neglected as far as tuning. I've expressed my interest in tuning and my wife will not let me touch "HER" piano, probably wise I guess since it is very easy to damage the piano. Luckily for me my mother has a piano and it is almost unplayable and that will be my guinea pig so to speak. I am so excited and believe i will be a natural. The site here has given me the confidence and basic knowledge to get started. I understand the liability and the difficulty involved, but it just seemed everyone I talked to wouldn't explain the basics like you have here. I am very grateful for your valiant efforts explaining the basics of piano tuning.
Would this tuning tool be appropriate for both my Boston grand at home and my Yamaha grand at work? I would like to be able to do quarterly tunings myself and hire a tuner less often. What happens is that my piano at home gets tuned less frequently than it should.
Scott replies: The lever described here, with a #2 head, will work on both pianos. However, please read the tutorial carefully to be certain you understand what is involved. Those are very nice pianos, and I would want to practice on a lesser piano if I could before working on those grands.
I would like to buy a piano tuning kit as a gift. The piano it would be for is a refurbished kemble minx and I am unsure what size of a tuning lever is appropriate for this piano. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
Scott replies: A standard #2 will probably work.
I've been "touching up" the tuning on various pianos -- when musical directing shows, for many years. Most theater companies don't have the money to keep their instruments in good tune, even if they happen to have decent ones. Now I have a beautiful Yamaha C3, and I've saved a lot of money by tuning it myself. Your website validated everything I've thought for a long time -- but it's still best to call a professional if there's a mechanical problem. The piano is, indeed, a very complex instrument. Some things are better left to people who know what they're doing! Thanks for a very enlightening and straight-forward guide for those who have an ear for it and want to give it a whirl.
Great website! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience!
Good article! However, I would give yourself and other novices who take their time to research and learn this skill more credit. I have been a "do-it-youselfer" for some time on many projects and have come to the conclusion that over time, you can do the same job, if not better than the professional. You basically make this article pointless when you say that a professional would do a better job. They might be able to do it faster, but my piano sounds just as in tune as a professional and it stays in tune just as long! Give yourself credit!
What a great resource for beginning piano tuners! Thank you! Here's an excellent free software tuner -- AP Tuner will work on a laptop or PC.
Scott replies: Thanks for the tip. We have developed an entire website devoted to Chromatic Tuners, both electronic and software.
This site is what the best of the web is all about! I've been a registered Craftsman with the Piano Technicians Guild since 1979 and my most appreciative clients over the years have been those who have tried tunings and repairs themselves and come to realize what an art-form it all is. I'm always happy to teach my clients to do portions of repairs they can do themselves, and they value their instrument all the more for the effort. It was after coming across my grandfathers tuning tools and trying it myself that I got into the trade. Back in the day, he had to tune most instruments he played on as he accompanied Billy Sunday and his revivals all over the country. l also found that furniture design was field I could enter and am now the proud owner of a patented design you can find at this site: yoga chair. Long live DYI!
This site has the perfect amount of information to get my piano close enough to perfect. Perfection is however subjective... what one professional thinks is perfect may not be perfect to another pro. Thanks for all of the tips and well thought out instructions!! Did I mention the word perfect? This site was perfectly written! Thanks, your work is much appreciated.
We just acquired a very nice Haines Bros. piano circa 1890 and it sounds pretty good now but I wanted to see about how to tune these. Fantastic site with all caveats needed I see are in place. After reading for a bit, I think I may have a pro do the first tune but we will let the piano 'settle in' for a while before that point. Thank you so much for your research and sharing.
Good basic information here makes me think it would be a fine vocation. i assume i would need a real piano to "practice" on instead of the electronic keyboard i currently have. too bad about that. great site...thanks!
Lots of good info. here. Need to make the novices aware of how easy it is to screw this up. A good tuning is not as easy as this sounds. But go ahead. Just call me or your local piano tuner when you're done. We need the work!
thanks for your site! i find it easy and effective for a musician that's about to tune his old friend :)
Appreciate your material. I am using it as a reference to help me tune my piano. I have tuned sour notes on a piano before, but want to learn to do the whole thing. It costs a lot of money to have someone come and tune it, and I just moved to a new location, so the piano is making its adjustment to the new local.
I was given a piano that was out in an unheated shop in Montana for several years. A lot of abuse, but I believe playable and fixable. When I put my tuner on it most of the keys are several cents sharp. Should I wait a while to tune it as it is now in our home in better temperature controlled conditions. I ordered the basic equipment needed to tune and am excited to get started as soon as it all gets here.
One question I have is the difference between a student quality lever and a gooseneck tuning lever. If you're not going to be working an grands or baby grands, is there any point in getting the student quality? (I'm looking at those listen on pianosupplies.com.) Thanks for putting all the information here together in one place.
Scott replies: Goosenecks are notorious for poor quality. The soft, poorly machined metal tips may not properly fit the pin, leading to marring the pin. Note that nothing but the cheapest levers are goosenecks. Take your lead from the professionals...they don't buy goosenecks. A decent student lever is not that expensive considering the value of the instrument it will service.
Okay, I've read the instructions, got the tools, I guess its time to give it a go. Thanks!
Hi, As a time served pro- I thought good on you! Well done. Personally I can not see any reason why another pro is attacking you. Some tips...when a piano is flat, check the middle with the bass and if required, just pull up the steel diskant section to the bass... On fine tuning...once finished, I check the steel notes doing the sharps first then the whites....it is easier on the ear... Try ''knocking'' the string into tune too...a very difficult skill which takes years of skill to master! cheers
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